Wednesday, 2 December 2009

Factions, an interesting topic in SL government


A group discussing becoming a "faction", the nature of factions inside the CDS is rather interesting as this discussion will show.

[11:18] Rose Springvale: it's open
[11:18] Rose Springvale: but we are looking at the faction issue as a group of potential faction creators
[11:18] Rose Springvale: What I've heard from the people i've talked to is a clear dislike for the faction system
[11:19] Rose Springvale: and while i don't think we have the time or the information necessary to push through elimination of factions before the end of this term
[11:19] followmeimthe Piedpiper is Online
[11:19] Rose Springvale: i think this group is ready to pursue it. so would propose that as a major plank to the faction we'd form here
[11:20] Rose Springvale: Caro, you'll be amused, Kami wants us to be the Corsairs
[11:20] Carolyn Saarinen: I'mokay with that. We didn't have an name for the new faction anyway ;)
[11:20] Rose Springvale: lolol
[11:20] Rose Springvale: i'm not okay with it!
[11:20] Rose Springvale: unless the women get to do the dragging off of the bounty... heheh
[11:21] Kamilah Hauptmann: Tongue in cheek suggestion, Rose. :)
[11:21] Rose Springvale: So last week we left the discussion at a consideration of name, and inclusion of the basic AA principles of tolerance and consensus building
[11:21] Rose Springvale: i know
[11:21] Carolyn Saarinen: Well ,i came up with : زخرفة للعالم
[11:21] Rose Springvale: lol
[11:21] Rose Springvale: if i can't type it on my keypboard, i'm not voting for it :)
[11:22] Carolyn Saarinen: 'Ornament of the world' is too long in English ;)
[11:22] Rose Springvale: smiles
[11:22] Rose Springvale: Ornamentalists?
[11:22] Rose Springvale: lol
[11:22] Carolyn Saarinen: but that's what it means
[11:22] Rose Springvale: pretty, but unnecessary...
[11:22] casta Oh is Online
[11:22] Kyla Damone is Online
[11:22] Rose Springvale: I thought about co opting micaels group name
[11:22] Carolyn Saarinen: It's from the description of al-Andalus by a Chritian chronicaler
[11:22] Rose Springvale: Convivencia
[11:23] Rose Springvale: yes, i have the book here on my desk
[11:23] Carolyn Saarinen: Me too ;)
[11:23] Rose Springvale: smiles
[11:23] Rose Springvale: thoughts?
[11:23] Rose Springvale: Pat , why ARE there factions in CDS?
[11:24] Carolyn Saarinen: SF is full of 'em Ekumen, Cosilium etc etc
[11:24] Rober1236 Jua: But why?
[11:24] Patroklus Murakami: well, if i understand the intention correctly, it was due to the problem of needing to replace ppl as they drop out of RA activities
[11:24] Patroklus Murakami: if you elect individuals and they move on ot other things, what do you do?
[11:25] Patroklus Murakami: the idea was that ppl vote for a faction platform and then, to some extent, the individuals are changeable :)
[11:25] Rose Springvale: that's an issue, but i would think you could go on without them..
[11:25] Patroklus Murakami: we had a lot more change in the past than recently
[11:25] Kamilah Hauptmann: Portability or real estate and avatars problem.
[11:25] Rober1236 Jua: No I think that makes sense
[11:25] Rober1236 Jua: you need some basic small unit of stability
[11:25] Rober1236 Jua: people drop in and out of SL all the time
[11:25] Rose Springvale: yes, well, my experience is that factions dont' represent the people in them very well
[11:25] Rose Springvale: at least now
[11:25] Rose Springvale: Hey Nala
[11:26] Rose Springvale: thanks for dropping by!
[11:26] Nala Kamala: Hi Rose.
[11:26] Kamilah Hauptmann: Like a deputy representative in the event the primary decides ski season is more interesting and profound. :)
[11:26] Rose Springvale: Rober, do you think we need factions? we have at most about 130 people
[11:26] Rober1236 Jua: Well the problem is that when ever you plan anything in SL you find the people you plan with tend to vanish
[11:26] Rose Springvale: true
[11:26] Rober1236 Jua: and then I find I get sent away on business all the time
[11:26] Carolyn Saarinen: All the LESS reason to have factions then
[11:27] Carolyn Saarinen: No?
[11:27] Rober1236 Jua: so the individual is a pretty piss poor unit for Second Life democracy
[11:27] Rober1236 Jua: Since we have not bonds of clans or anyting from RL beyond language a faction makes sense
[11:27] Rober1236 Jua: A faction will survive the removal of most of its memebers
[11:27] Kamilah Hauptmann: Factions then are an artefact of the presumption (and a good one) people are flakes?
[11:28] Carolyn Saarinen: But it shouldn't
[11:28] Rose Springvale: lol
[11:28] Rober1236 Jua: Well it is hard to keep 100% on SL for extended periods of time
[11:28] Kamilah Hauptmann: Yes, people are flakes.
[11:28] Rober1236 Jua: people get jobs, take classes, fall in love
[11:28] Rober1236 Jua: or just need a break
[11:28] Carolyn Saarinen: If it does that it's not a faction it's whoever is left pretending they have a constituency that doesn't exist
[11:28] Rober1236 Jua: me myself I just got this new book I can't put down
[11:29] followmeimthe Piedpiper is Offline
[11:29] Nala Kamala: book?
[11:29] Rose Springvale: With the RA as presently constituted... its a six month every other week commitment, with the option of voting within 7 days if you can't make the meeting
[11:29] Rober1236 Jua: You lose some democracy but gain constitutional stability
[11:29] Rose Springvale: what is the book?
[11:29] Rober1236 Jua: Anathem
[11:30] Rose Springvale: interesting
[11:30] Rose Springvale: do you think it is relevant to this discussion?
[11:30] Rober1236 Jua: In SL I find it almost impossible to get anything done
[11:30] Halston Halasy is Offline
[11:30] Rober1236 Jua: And no I don't see much connection between Anathem and this discussion
[11:30] Rose Springvale: okay :)
[11:31] Rober1236 Jua: Anathem is about a society that is stable and slow by its nature
[11:31] Rober1236 Jua: SL is a society where any person can vanish in a day
[11:31] Rose Springvale: the statement: You lose some democracy but gain constitutional stability
[11:31] Rose Springvale: what do the rest of you think of that?
[11:31] Rober1236 Jua: People plan projects and key members never show up
[11:31] Carolyn Saarinen: Is false
[11:31] Nala Kamala: and i am afraid that I am going to have to vanish for awhile myself. My lunch is over. I got here too late.
[11:31] Rose Springvale: we'll keep you advised nala
[11:32] Carolyn Saarinen: No the 'key people' by definition are the ones who DO show up
[11:32] Rober1236 Jua: See if this facton was tasked to do something, the entire faction, we could survive the lose of Nala
[11:32] Nala Kamala: Thans Rose. Adios.
[11:32] Rober1236 Jua: Yes but today's person who shows up is tomorrows "I got a new job and a new boyfriend"
[11:33] Carolyn Saarinen: "Ok bye bye" Find someone else
[11:33] Rose Springvale: those people don't generally get involved in government though
[11:33] Rose Springvale: personally i'd rather sacrifice stability for the sake of democracy
[11:34] Rose Springvale: i am a bit left wing though :)
[11:34] Rober1236 Jua: Well I am left wing enough to want government to hold together
[11:34] Carolyn Saarinen: It doesn't take a lot of people to get stuff done in 2L.
[11:34] Rose Springvale: true
[11:34] Rober1236 Jua: I can see the value of building something that would assure that someone will be there to vote
[11:35] Rose Springvale: So what i hear you saying
[11:35] Carolyn Saarinen: An insistance on consulting people who can't be bothered is what screws things up
[11:35] Rose Springvale: is that we would need a mechanism to fill vacated seats
[11:35] Rose Springvale: if we dispose of factions
[11:35] Kamilah Hauptmann: Ah, the founding of New Babbage was delayed a year because Jefferson Gould... got a new girlfriend.
[11:35] Rose Springvale: smiles
[11:35] Rober1236 Jua: Well sure but you can't stop the group while you seek to fill a spot
[11:35] Carolyn Saarinen: QED
[11:36] Rose Springvale: on juries, we seat alternates
[11:36] Rose Springvale: who are prepared to step in should the paneled jurist are dismissed
[11:36] Rober1236 Jua: In normal life you often have a redundent, someone who can fill for you
[11:36] Rose Springvale: yes
[11:36] Rober1236 Jua: but in SL turn around is so radical you need a cluster of maybe 5 people to assure someone will be there
[11:37] Carolyn Saarinen: Which AA always had
[11:37] Rose Springvale: yes
[11:37] Cannot complete attachment. An attachment is pending for that spot.
[11:37] Patroklus Murakami: we once discussed changing our electoral system to single transferable vote. you would elect individuals and, when one leaves, the next person in the list takes the seat. that coudl work without factions (or with them)
[11:37] Velazquez Bonetto is Offline
[11:37] Rose Springvale: yes, i think so too
[11:37] Carolyn Saarinen: Not the same folk every week but 6-8 people would show up to talk things over
[11:37] Rober1236 Jua: But in SL its not one person going, it 10 people going in 2 days
[11:38] Rose Springvale: Carolyn, that's another thing i thought of
[11:38] Carolyn Saarinen: ?
[11:38] Rose Springvale: that whatever we come up with, communication groups are necessary
[11:38] You decline Idylls Club, Da Vinci Isle (222, 243, 32) from A group member named Stosh Quartz.
[11:38] Rose Springvale: its crazy that the first time some people discuss issues is at the RA meeting where the vote is to be taken
[11:38] Carolyn Saarinen nods
[11:38] Rose Springvale: that's one thing we did here.. by meeting twice a week
[11:39] Rose Springvale: we could actually communicate the problems and answer questiosn informally
[11:39] Carolyn Saarinen: and crazier that that discussion comes to nothing because of 7 day votes
[11:39] Rose Springvale: without having hand slapped for being out of turn lol
[11:39] Rose Springvale: so if we create this new faction, i'd like communication to be a function as well, not limited to just faction members
[11:39] Rober1236 Jua: Do you all mind if I blog this discussion? Its rather interesting?
[11:40] Rose Springvale: i dont' mind Rober
[11:40] Patroklus Murakami: i think it would be a good idea to alternate the RA meetings with your style of town hall meetings
[11:40] Patroklus Murakami: one week RA, next week town hall, rinse repeat :)
[11:40] Carolyn Saarinen: Well, I did suggest making the AA group the faction ;)
[11:40] Rose Springvale: smiles
[11:40] Rose Springvale: but the A A group is over 300 people :)
[11:40] Rober1236 Jua: I have a possible name from a book by Ian M Banks
[11:40] Rose Springvale: and cds rules ... yes?
[11:41] Rober1236 Jua: The Offenders
[11:41] Carolyn Saarinen: so there's always someone to show up ;)
[11:41] Rose Springvale: lolol
[11:41] Rose Springvale: i'm way too nice for you guys lol
[11:41] Rose Springvale: i thought the Seekers
[11:41] Rose Springvale: :)
[11:41] Rober1236 Jua: Well Offenders are so cool in the novel Excerssions
[11:41] Carolyn Saarinen: More seriously, if it was land owners only - since they can vote - it would be about...23
[11:41] Rober1236 Jua: Excessions I think it was
[11:42] Rober1236 Jua: Well at the least a faction can be like a salon
[11:42] Rose Springvale: caro, are we transcripting ?
[11:42] Rose Springvale: i like that too Rober
[11:42] Rober1236 Jua: I was going to blog it all sortly
[11:43] Carolyn Saarinen: I'm not, but I though you usually just did a copy/paste?
[11:43] Rose Springvale: make sure you send the link or post on the forums
[11:43] Rose Springvale: i just want consent from the participants, i've got the log
[11:43] Carolyn Saarinen: sure
[11:43] Patroklus Murakami: you have my consent to publish my words :)
[11:43] Rose Springvale: getting requests from people who can't come
[11:44] Rober1236 Jua: So is this a faction or not?
[11:44] Carolyn Saarinen: Tis Disco Stu!!
[11:44] Rose Springvale: we are exploring whether we want to be Rober
[11:44] Rose Springvale: right now we have representation based on the merger
[11:45] Carolyn Saarinen: We might have to be, even if the goal is to eliminate factions ultimately
[11:45] Rober1236 Jua: Well what would be the harm of being a faction that is negative on the concept of faction?
[11:45] Osprey Therian is Online
[11:45] Lilith Ivory: ty Stui :)
[11:45] Lilith Ivory: was comfortable on your head ;-)
[11:45] Lilith Ivory: soft landing
[11:45] Rose Springvale is Online
[11:45] Rose Springvale: that's what i'm proposing Rober, that we include that in our platform
[11:45] Patroklus Murakami is Online
[11:46] Carolyn Saarinen nods
[11:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I'm useful for something
[11:46] Rose Springvale: and try to get the community involved in the discussion
[11:46] Lilith Ivory is Online
[11:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone is Online
[11:46] Celadon Shepherd is Online
[11:46] Carolyn Saarinen is Online
[11:46] Rose Springvale: hi micael!
[11:46] Rose Springvale: hi Lil, stui
[11:46] Lilith Ivory: Hi All
[11:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: sorry I was late again
[11:46] Micael Khandr: Hello all!
[11:46] Explorer Dastardly is Offline
[11:46] Rose Springvale: thanks rober
[11:46] Patroklus Murakami: hi micael, lilith, stui :)
[11:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: hektik work
[11:47] Rober1236 Jua: We could be the "We are not a faction" faction
[11:47] Rose Springvale: oh, i kind of like that lol
[11:48] Micael Khandr: Faction-less?
[11:48] Rober1236 Jua: Faction Free
[11:48] Carolyn Saarinen: For newcomers we are trying to decide if we need to be a faction in order to work towards getting rid of factions
[11:48] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but will people take us seriously if we are too blunt about our wish to de-faction the space ?
[11:48] Carolyn Saarinen: Fac Off?
[11:48] Lilith Ivory: in Germany we have "The good Guys" not a big faction till now but existing ;-)
[11:48] Micael Khandr: I kind of like the idea . . of a faction dedicated to eliminating factions
[11:48] Rober1236 Jua: I am all for anarchist striving
[11:49] Carolyn Saarinen: The Eliminators!
[11:49] Rober1236 Jua: Ultimately the goal is a society without any rule or power
[11:49] Rober1236 Jua: just imagination that anyone can use and play with
[11:49] Rose Springvale: i think Stui, that so long as we work within the system, respect shouldn't be an issue
[11:49] Micael Khandr: Transcendentals
[11:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have something to say that I remember from one of my employers
[11:49] Kamilah Hauptmann: The Tyrants. >:)
[11:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we used to hold meetings called "Closedowns"
[11:50] Rober1236 Jua: Unfaction?
[11:50] Rose Springvale: (that's caledon, Kami :)
[11:50] Kamilah Hauptmann: (Arguing success? :) )
[11:50] Carolyn Saarinen: No Rose Caledon is The Tyrant, surely?
[11:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: until some psychologically trained guy said "the name leads the participants down the negative"
[11:50] Rose Springvale: smiles
[11:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so we had to call it Team talk
[11:50] Rose Springvale: ewww
[11:50] Carolyn Saarinen: Bleh
[11:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: to embraced the positive side
[11:50] Rose Springvale: i'm all for positive
[11:51] Rose Springvale: but not too touch feely lol
[11:51] Rose Springvale: oh .. we could go back to the Snow Crash terms...and be the Deliverators
[11:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: can we call it Warm hugs ?
[11:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: :)
[11:51] Carolyn Saarinen: "Touchy-Feely"? Nah
[11:51] Rober1236 Jua: So have we decided to be a Faction or not?
[11:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we call call it "squeeze a boob"
[11:52] Carolyn Saarinen: Dunno
[11:52] Micael Khandr: Librators . . ?
[11:52] Rose Springvale: well, mechanically
[11:52] Patroklus Murakami: what is the problem you see with the faction system? is it that it promotes conflict in your opinion? or that factions are not representative of their members? or some other issue? i'm not clear what the problem you are trying to solve
[11:52] Micael Khandr: liberators
[11:52] PatriciaAnne Daviau is Online
[11:52] Rober1236 Jua: Okay if I could impose some kind of firm
[11:52] Rose Springvale: we need to have enough people to form one. Yes Pat, all of those
[11:52] Rober1236 Jua: first the debate on being a Faction
[11:52] Rober1236 Jua: then the vote
[11:52] Rose Springvale: Rober
[11:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: faction is division
[11:52] Rober1236 Jua: then maybe a week or two for the name
[11:52] Rober1236 Jua: Yes Rose?
[11:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: unity is better
[11:52] Rose Springvale: we have to have enough people to form the faction.. 10% of the voting population
[11:53] Patroklus Murakami: so, do you seek to abolish factions or just not base the electoral system on them?
[11:53] Rose Springvale: so roughly 11 people need to say, yes, i want to be part of that group
[11:53] Kamilah Hauptmann: Rose, what were the land requirements for a number of voting members per 'household'?
[11:53] Patroklus Murakami: (tell me if I'm asking too many questions!)
[11:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we wish to lead people down a better path :)
[11:53] Rober1236 Jua: I yeld to the Getlewoman from SL on the matter of representation
[11:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: plain and simple
[11:53] Rose Springvale: lolol
[11:53] Carolyn Saarinen: Sure Rober, only problem is that name is the only thing about a Group you can't change, so we can't form one without it.
[11:53] Rose Springvale: Pat, that's a good question, and from my personal viewpoint, both
[11:53] Rober1236 Jua: Well as for size, since we are kind of radcial we can break the rule here
[11:53] Rober1236 Jua: agreed?
[11:54] Rober1236 Jua: Since we are an unfaction anyways
[11:54] Rose Springvale: Rober
[11:54] Rose Springvale: smiels
[11:54] Rose Springvale: nooo
[11:54] Rose Springvale: we have to work within the established rules of CDS
[11:54] Rose Springvale: because we are talking about the role of the bigger government
[11:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: The factionless faction :)
[11:54] Rose Springvale: ther are currently 3 active factions
[11:54] Carolyn Saarinen: No I mean LL SL Groups, you can't change the name.
[11:54] Rober1236 Jua: But were are factionless
[11:55] You decline Cienega Soon Gallery, Misali (146, 54, 21) from A group member named Cienega Soon.
[11:55] Rose Springvale: AA has had representation based on its population, so this is the firs election the AA citizens will vote in
[11:55] Kamilah Hauptmann: Rose, what were the land requirements for a number of voting members per 'household'?
[11:55] Rose Springvale: Kami, groups who own land
[11:55] Patroklus Murakami: i can understand wanting to change the faction system for elections. but surely abolishing factions means removing the right to free association? i assume you don't mean that?
[11:55] Rose Springvale: 128m per person
[11:55] Rose Springvale: didn't say that
[11:55] Rose Springvale: associeat where ever and whenever
[11:55] Rober1236 Jua: So if you don't have land you can't vote?
[11:56] Carolyn Saarinen: that's another bug
[11:56] Rose Springvale: that is the CDS system. As you know AA has always been open to all participants
[11:56] Rose Springvale: another reason for an AA faction
[11:56] Rose Springvale: to provide representation to the non landed people
[11:57] Rober1236 Jua: Yes I don't own land
[11:57] Rose Springvale: through representation yes, but still an opportunity to be heard
[11:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AA is Love :)
[11:57] Patroklus Murakami: with the greatest of respect, i think that an 'AA' faction sounds like quite a divisive idea
[11:57] Rober1236 Jua: perhaps I am not appropriate here
[11:57] Rose Springvale: you are fine
[11:57] Carolyn Saarinen: but those not owning land can't join any faction AA based or not , under CDS rules
[11:57] Rose Springvale: and helpful
[11:57] Kalli Birman is Offline
[11:57] Patroklus Murakami: AA v. 'old' CDS
[11:57] Rober1236 Jua: oh well
[11:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that's a matter of interpretation Pat
[11:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: depends where you view it from
[11:57] Kalli Birman is Online
[11:57] Rose Springvale: Rober, hang with us. :)
[11:58] Rose Springvale: CDS is already divided
[11:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the result is inclusion
[11:58] Kamilah Hauptmann: Shall I see if Des Shang wants a vote? He's a member of my household group aftr all. :)
[11:58] Carolyn Saarinen: CDS hd/has 4 factions without any CDS input
[11:58] Rose Springvale: AA input
[11:58] Carolyn Saarinen: yes
[11:58] Carolyn Saarinen: 4 factions already
[11:59] Rose Springvale: The group rules would permit that Kami
[11:59] Kamilah Hauptmann: It would at the very least add a level of hilarity. :)


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