Friday, 23 October 2009

Another Kira talk on Phenomenology


An example of a discourse developing in Second Life
http://slurl.com/secondlife/BaikUn/216/104/252

[8:15] Jovanotti Bardenboar: The Laptop I am typing on right now
[8:15] Linda Lunt is Offline
[8:16] Jovanotti Bardenboar: "refers back" to the visual experience of the front side I am having in this moment
[8:16] Jovanotti Bardenboar: and to the tactual sensations of my fingertips
[8:17] Carlos Cornelius: Is "referring back" a kind of semantic relation that gives "meaning"?
[8:17] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Its reality "announces itself" through this phenomena
[8:17] Jovanotti Bardenboar: I would rather say that "meaning" (e.g. "laptop") is bestowed on the basis of these lived-experiences
[8:18] Jovanotti Bardenboar: the laptop is posited as existing, as real
[8:18] Carlos Cornelius: OK. Thanks!
[8:18] Storm Nordwind: Thus the laptop is merely an imputation that uses, as its basis(es), the experiences you mention?
[8:18] Yo Haiku: "reality announcing itself"--very well said
[8:18] Jovanotti Bardenboar: through an apprehension that I "perform" on these experiences
[8:19] Jovanotti Bardenboar: I apprehend them as "manifestations of" a reality, in this case, of the laptop
[8:19] Jovanotti Bardenboar: There are cases in which this doesn't happen, for instance, when I have a tactual sensation of pain in my back
[8:19] Jovanotti Bardenboar: this is not apprehended as the manifestation of an object.
[8:19] Carlos Cornelius: Yes, or "fringe feelings" like pure expectation
[8:19] Jovanotti Bardenboar: This means: "Reality" is a sort of surplus of apprehension that we enact in certain cases
[8:20] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Precisely.
[8:20] Jovanotti Bardenboar: The second remark is:
[8:20] Jovanotti Bardenboar: 2) "Consciousness" can be an ambiguous term.
[8:20] Jovanotti Bardenboar: For instance, in the cognitive science there is the idea that consciousness supervenes on stimuli
[8:21] Jovanotti Bardenboar: e.g. I have some stimuli on the skin of my fingertips, some informations are sent to my brain, certain neurons fire
[8:21] Jovanotti Bardenboar: and the result of all this is "consciousness" I am "coscious" of the existence of the laptop.
[8:21] Karli Daviau is Online
[8:22] Jovanotti Bardenboar: This is, from the point of view of phenomenology, completely unacceptable.
[8:22] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Consciousness is not a "state"
[8:22] Jovanotti Bardenboar: like a "mental state"
[8:22] Jovanotti Bardenboar: opposed to "unconsciousness"
[8:23] Krissy Muggleston is Online
[8:23] Jovanotti Bardenboar: that supervenes on certain unconscious data-processings performed by our brain.
[8:23] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Consciousness is, as a scholar once put it, "the dative of manifestation"
[8:24] Jovanotti Bardenboar: It's the front profile of the laptop vis-a-vis the reality of the laptop, which is only posited on the basis of the first.
[8:25] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Ok, too long remarks :-)
[8:25] Yo Haiku: super
[8:25] Carlos Cornelius: Very interesting.
[8:25] Solomon Mosely is Offline
[8:25] Carlos Cornelius: So, a few questions.
[8:26] Rachel Esharham: So, the front profile of the laptop is "consciousness" in the sense of cognitive science whereas
[8:26] Rachel Esharham: the "reality of the laptop" is "consciousness" in the sense of phenomenology?
[8:26] Jovanotti Bardenboar: No, the "front profile" of the laptop is consciousness from the point of view of phenomenology
[8:26] Marino Nuvolari is Offline
[8:27] Rachel Esharham: Well, I am glad I asked...
[8:27] Jovanotti Bardenboar: (For the Cognitive Sciences "consciousness" is my awareness of the fact that there is a laptop
[8:27] Carlos Cornelius: Is "consciousness" something that cannot be defined in terms of states (physical states)?
[8:27] Jovanotti Bardenboar: supervening on the neuronal processes)
[8:28] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Sure, but then you are talking about something different.
[8:28] Lucien Robespear: Would Husserl want to say that there is a biological basis for consciousness?
[8:28] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Definitely, the only question is what "basis" means in this context.
[8:29] Jovanotti Bardenboar: The big mistake of the empirical psychology for Husserl
[8:29] Rober1236 Jua: Is it okay if I blog this content?
[8:29] Jovanotti Bardenboar: is to conceive of the relationship "brain/consciousness" in causal terms
[8:29] Linda Lunt is Online
[8:29] Jovanotti Bardenboar: And it all depends on the confusion on the term "consciousness"
[8:30] Carlos Cornelius: Could you elaborate on that?
[8:30] Jovanotti Bardenboar: It would be manifestly weird to say "my brain is causing the front profile of my laptop I am experiencing now"
[8:30] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Wouldn't it?
[8:31] Carlos Cornelius: Yes.
[8:31] Jovanotti Bardenboar: The front profile of my laptop, however, is not "the laptop"
[8:31] hazhaz1017 Takacs is Offline
[8:31] Jovanotti Bardenboar: it's not "out there"
[8:31] Jovanotti Bardenboar: It becomes even more clear if you take, for instance, a glass or a cup
[8:31] Rober1236 Jua: The brain is not part of lived subjective experience so it has no part of the phenomenological view
[8:32] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Precisely!
[8:32] Jovanotti Bardenboar: But take this other example
[8:32] Jovanotti Bardenboar: a cup on the table two feets away from me
[8:32] Jovanotti Bardenboar: look at the edge of the cup
[8:32] Jovanotti Bardenboar: what shape is it?
[8:33] Rober1236 Jua: Its not the shape of a brain!
[8:33] Carlos Cornelius: elliptical
[8:33] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Fantastic, elliptical
[8:33] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Now, is there an ellypse out there?
[8:33] Carlos Cornelius: No, it's actually circular
[8:33] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Great
[8:33] Carlos Cornelius: And I would say that it is actually circular
[8:34] Jovanotti Bardenboar: So, what is the ellypse?
[8:34] Jovanotti Bardenboar: There is one sense in which you see an ellypse
[8:34] Jovanotti Bardenboar: and one sense in which you see a circle.
[8:34] Storm Nordwind: With one eye only open, you might not even say it is circular! :)
[8:34] Explorer Dastardly is Offline
[8:34] Jovanotti Bardenboar: You don't need to make a choice it depends of what you want to focus on.
[8:34] Marino Nuvolari is Online
[8:34] Lucien Robespear: Sure, the brain may not have a part in the phenomenological view; but if we want to say consciousness is biologically based, I dont see how you can deny some kind of causal relation between the brain and conscoiusness.
[8:35] Jovanotti Bardenboar: For Husserl, "consciousness" in this case is the ellypse.
[8:35] Jovanotti Bardenboar: No, no, the point is not denying anything
[8:35] Jovanotti Bardenboar: the point is to understand what comes first
[8:35] Jovanotti Bardenboar: and how this relation is to be conceived of.
[8:36] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Given that there is, indeed, a relation, and a very important one.
[8:36] Jovanotti Bardenboar: But, to go back to the example
[8:36] casta Oh is Online
[8:36] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Consciousness for Husserl is not just the awareness of the fact that there is a cup on the table
[8:36] Carlos Cornelius: Would you say that the cup looks BOTH elliptical and circular?
[8:37] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Consciousness is the ellypse that is neither "out there" nor "in my head"
[8:37] Jovanotti Bardenboar: But it is a "real" circle announcing itself.
[8:37] Jovanotti Bardenboar: From that position
[8:37] Rober1236 Jua: Consciousness comes before out there or in here can be condisered
[8:37] Jovanotti Bardenboar: PRECISELY ROBER, this is the point
[8:38] Jovanotti Bardenboar: So, the circle refers back to the ellypse
[8:38] Rachel Esharham: So consciousness is the first step before anything else happens?
[8:38] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Yes, pretty much so.
[8:38] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Because everything announces itself, comes to manifestation or givenness through consciousness
[8:39] Carlos Cornelius: Does consciousness "represents" or should we choose a different word?
[8:39] Dali Waverider: So in in a neurophysiology sense Husserl's "consciousness" is the raw sensory input, close to the world at large. Higher order neurons ( in some cases), are perhaps higher processing will be involved in the association of the ellipse to the circle.
[8:39] Rober1236 Jua: NOoOOOOOOO
[8:39] Dali Waverider: or perhaps*
[8:39] Rober1236 Jua: Dali I think that would be wrong entirely
[8:39] Rober1236 Jua: Conscious is before even all of that
[8:39] Explorer Dastardly is Online
[8:39] Dali Waverider: Well you said that the ellipse was "consciousness"?
[8:39] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Two problems:
[8:40] Rober1236 Jua: and all of that sciecne talk is one expression of consciousness
[8:40] Jovanotti Bardenboar: 1) The ellypse does not "represent" the circle.
[8:40] Carlos Cornelius: Science talk is reality talk, right?
[8:40] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Ok, in order:
[8:40] Rober1236 Jua: Its talk and thinking that comes from consciousness but it is false in that it assumes causes
[8:40] Rahana Halostar: how do we relate neroun activity with consciousness. Can we?
[8:40] Rachel Esharham: Yeah but I think science would see consciousness as a second step, not as a first.
[8:41] Dali Waverider: I'm looking for precisely wat you mean by "conciousness". Until I understand that, I'm not understanding you.
[8:41] Rober1236 Jua: Science is loaded with materialist assumptions that Husserl hated
[8:41] Rober1236 Jua: Conscious is what everything happens in
[8:41] Rober1236 Jua: defininng it is impossible
[8:42] Dali Waverider: SO if I'm a scientist, I won't be able to understand this? THere's not Rosetta stone?
[8:42] Rober1236 Jua: since you have the need to contain it inside of itself
[8:42] Carlos Cornelius: I would like to go back to the cup example.
[8:42] Rober1236 Jua: No scientists can read this philosophy it is not illegal
[8:42] Dali Waverider: B-)
[8:42] Carlos Cornelius: Why isn't the ellipsis a representation of a circle?
[8:43] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Because "representation", as far as I understand can only mean two things
[8:43] Jovanotti Bardenboar: 1) A "representative" of the circle, like in politics.
[8:44] Jovanotti Bardenboar: The citizen is not there is the senate
[8:44] Jovanotti Bardenboar: so there are representatives
[8:44] Dali Waverider: Well I think the ellipse to a circle is hard-wired in the optical neurons. Hence my reaction.
[8:44] Velazquez Bonetto is Online
[8:44] Jovanotti Bardenboar: But the circle is indeed present, so you don't need a representative.
[8:44] Carlos Cornelius: I agree.
[8:45] Jovanotti Bardenboar: If you want you can see a circle by apprehendig the ellypse for what it is.
[8:45] Jovanotti Bardenboar: This is what you do all the time in normal life when you don't do phenomenology.
[8:45] Jovanotti Bardenboar: You don't see the ellypse, you see the circle.
[8:45] Jovanotti Bardenboar: BUT
[8:46] Jovanotti Bardenboar: you can suspend this normal, natural apprehension and "visualize" the ellypse.
[8:46] Jovanotti Bardenboar: A shift of attention is possible.
[8:46] Carlos Cornelius: Is this a perceptual process? Or how is it different?
[8:46] Jovanotti Bardenboar: In this case you realize that the ellypse is not a "worldly" thing.
[8:46] Jovanotti Bardenboar: It is just consciousness, namely, consciousness of a circle
[8:46] Jovanotti Bardenboar: from a certain standpoint.
[8:46] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Plus
[8:47] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Moreover, I have a problem with the language of processing that was put forth before
[8:47] Jovanotti Bardenboar: The point is:
[8:47] Carlos Cornelius: So there is perception and then there is consciousness, which includes perception?
[8:47] Jovanotti Bardenboar: I do not "process an ellypse" and eventually see a circle.
[8:48] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Perception is a mode of consciousness.
[8:48] Carlos Cornelius: But what is my visualization of the ellipsis?
[8:48] Carlos Cornelius: Isn't that perception?
[8:48] Jovanotti Bardenboar: It is the shift from a straightforward directedness toward the object
[8:49] Jovanotti Bardenboar: to the thematization of the manner of presentation of the object
[8:49] Jovanotti Bardenboar: but this manner of presentation is not a "piece" of the object
[8:49] Jovanotti Bardenboar: it is a moment of consciousness.
[8:49] Rachel Esharham: So, perception and conscisouness occur at the same time? Or at least can occur simulataneously?
[8:49] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Perception for Husserl is a mode of consciousness.
[8:50] Jovanotti Bardenboar: There isn't perception + consciousness
[8:50] Velazquez Bonetto is Offline
[8:50] Carlos Cornelius: But is it a sort of "fundamental" mode?
[8:50] Krissy Muggleston is Offline
[8:50] Jovanotti Bardenboar: I perceive the circle through a certain apprehension of the ellypse
[8:50] Jovanotti Bardenboar: (as a manifestation of the circle).
[8:51] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Oh dear, it's late! I'm sorry guys, I have to leave, this is horrible because I'm loving this conversation..
[8:51] Carlos Cornelius: Sure, THanks! See you next Friday!
[8:51] Rachel Esharham: Thanks, Andrea!
[8:51] Jovanotti Bardenboar: But, please, proceed and I will read the transcript
[8:51] Dali Waverider: Bye Jovanotti.
[8:51] Lucien Robespear: Thank you
[8:51] Jovanotti Bardenboar: Thanks guys, it was great talking
[8:51] Storm Nordwind: Wonderful Jovanotti. Thank you!
[8:51] Rahana Halostar: Much to think about
[8:51] Yo Haiku: was great!
[8:52] Dali Waverider: certainly thought provoking!
[8:52] Yo Haiku: I think there are several things that come up
[8:52] Yo Haiku: that deserve clarification
[8:52] Carlos Cornelius: I would love to know what you think, Yo!
[8:52] Yo Haiku: 1. the difference between the "scientific" vs. "phenomenological"
[8:52] Rahana Halostar: Yes now perception needs clarivication
[8:53] Rachel Esharham: I perceive that as well ;-)
[8:53] Yo Haiku: 2. the difference between the "natural attitude" vs phen.
[8:54] Yo Haiku: 3. or more specifically why consciousness is not percetion, brain-based, causal, and the like
[8:54] Carlos Cornelius: Yes, maybe we can start talking about these distinctions now and continue next Friday?
[8:54] Yo Haiku: each of which could be unpacked
[8:54] Yo Haiku: either through texts from Husserl
[8:54] Yo Haiku: either through texts from Husserl
[8:55] Yo Haiku: or from examples like Jovanotti did
[8:55] Storm Nordwind would be interested in comparing human perception to the 'perception' of a camera, which appears to see the same things before interpretation
[8:55] Carlos Cornelius: Yes, why isn't the ellipsis a "mapping"?
[8:56] Yo Haiku: could yuo say more--a mapping??
[8:56] Carlos Cornelius: Good point Storm! I think an example like this helps clarifying stuff.
[8:56] Explorer Dastardly is Offline
[8:56] Carlos Cornelius: You "represent" the geometric features of the circle through the ellipsis
[8:57] Bjarn Eriksen is Online
[8:57] You decline MCA Meet the Artists Oct 23rd from A group member named Scotj Criss.
[8:57] Man Michinaga is Online
[8:57] Carlos Cornelius: Preserving its essential structure
[8:57] Carlos Cornelius: Or something like that
[8:57] Yo Haiku: camera example might be helpful in illustrating how consciousness "thematizes," in that a camera does not thematize but we do and therefore we "see" things as meaning-objects
[8:58] Pooky Amsterdam is Online
[8:58] Carlos Cornelius: So the camera captures an "unthematic" world
[8:58] Man Michinaga is Offline
[8:58] Carlos Cornelius: I like that
[8:58] Yo Haiku: camera in this sense is not "conscious"
[8:59] Bjarn Eriksen is Offline
[9:00] Yo Haiku: oops it is already 6pm (Europe
[9:00] Carlos Cornelius: Thank you, Yo, that helped.
[9:00] Carlos Cornelius: OK, so thank you all for coming!
[9:00] Carlos Cornelius: See you next Friday.
[9:00] Yo Haiku: must run but definitely next week!
[9:00] Rachel Esharham: Thanks everybody!
[9:00] Lucien Robespear: Ok, see you next week
[9:00] Carlos Cornelius: We can start with the distinctions that Yo presented
[9:00] Rahana Halostar: Thank you. We have more to think about for next week. Bye !
[9:00] Storm Nordwind switches off the "ON AIR" signs
[9:01] Carlos Cornelius: OK. Bye everybody
[9:01] Dali Waverider: I thought I understood the dichotomy using the laptop example. When the ellipse to circle association was introduce, I became confused, as it's my understanding that the inference from 2-dimensional projection to 3-dimensional space is hard wired. There are specific neurons that will recognize an ellipse potentially as a circle. So to me this is entirely out of the realm of "conciousness".
[9:01] Rachel Esharham: Bye!
[9:01] Dali Waverider: Bye all.
[9:01] Carlos Cornelius: Good point Dali. Let's talk about that next Friday
[9:02] Mickorod Renard: thankyou everyone
[9:02] Linda Lunt is Offline


Rober1236 Jua the Cyber Trekker of Second Life
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