Wednesday, 23 September 2009
Very intersting chat in SL about avatars
Delphi - Self Assessment, Social Science, Psychology,
An awesome conversation in Second Life on Avatars. I love the Open Habitat group and wear their membership all the time.
[4:16] Reflection Freenote: hello areyn, we are just discussing the meaning of our avatars
[4:16] Areyn Laurasia: Aye, sorry I'm late
[4:16] Reflection Freenote: hello dragana
[4:16] Dragana Noyes: hi :)
[4:16] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: its lie contmplaing the meaning of life
[4:17] Sharry Ragu: lol
[4:17] Lucian Ravinelli: The SCA is Society for Creative Anachronism, they, re-create medival society, except without the religion and black plague :/
[4:17] Reflection Freenote: yes pye, very much:)) (or "self" whcih for a human being is very similar)
[4:18] Reflection Freenote: ahhhh Lucian fun!!!! no plague for me thanks (portajohns too I hope;-)
[4:19] Tristan Avedon: i will refrain from plague and religion myself, thanks. :)
[4:19] Reflection Freenote: I wonder if we often reflect upon the meaning of our personal "art" in creating and evolving the avatar?
[4:19] Lucian Ravinelli: yes it is very much fun, and yes they use the portajohns instead of throwing their waste into the street (altothough some people still piss in the road, myself included)
[4:19] Reflection Freenote: well you are being a "purist" Lucian:))
[4:19] Tristan Avedon: well if you think about it, the avatar is art. all on its own.
[4:19] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: ah yes! ive an article ina fancy art magazine this month about avatar as art
[4:19] Delphi: Welcome, Rober1236. Have a pleasant stay.
[4:20] Sharry Ragu: I do often.. a constant question.. what am I expressing here... *ponders some more*
[4:20] Reflection Freenote: yes tristan, absolutely
[4:20] Lucian Ravinelli: hah
[4:20] Tristan Avedon: which makes it an amazing vehicle for personal expression.
[4:20] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: its an art
[4:20] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: an art to maintain and cherish
[4:20] Reflection Freenote: really Pye? do you have a reference, by any chance?
[4:20] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: AartLink australia
[4:20] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: ARtlink*
[4:21] Reflection Freenote: thank you!!
[4:21] hajar Cyberstar: for me, I don't regard it so mucch as art, rather than personal aesthetics - perhaps other individuals may do so, with their philosophies and beliefs, etc
[4:21] Sharry Ragu: nice hajar.. I like that
[4:21] Lucian Ravinelli: something that interests me in the avatar expression are those who choose to be an avatar gender opposite what they are, whether it be for financial (stripping in clubs) or personal (transvestitism)
[4:22] Sharry Ragu: I have to say.. Pye.. I'm almost tempted to ask for a definition of art...
[4:22] Magenta Bleac: I got told I had a big ass when I first arrived in SL, that made me determined to trim my avatar's ass, and then my RL ass followed
[4:22] Tristan Avedon: my first avatar actually resembled the RL me a bit. i got more creative as I tweaked.
[4:22] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: we under the sudieum of art... i presented myself
[4:22] Sharry Ragu: wow! you lost weight RL Magenta?
[4:22] Reflection Freenote: I guess hajar that in modern times we have rarified theconcept of art as somehing wich isdone b "artists" but I think this is a very personal fusion of self into material expression, and so ver much the well-spring of all art, really
[4:22] Magenta Bleac: I did
[4:22] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: pye did the art not the human
[4:22] Lucian Ravinelli: I think that it is a phenomenon that occurs more for guys pretending to be girls than it is girls pretending to be guys, but that is just my presumption
[4:22] Iynque Loire: Lucian: I know a lot of men who have female avatars for the cooler clothes, but also men who cannot transition to female in RL and so are female in SL
[4:23] hajar Cyberstar: yes, Reflection, I get your point
[4:23] Reflection Freenote: yes, Lucian, that seems to often be a very self-conscious exploration of the meang of gender and self, and is extremely exploratory
[4:24] Tristan Avedon: Lucian: i have a female friend who is frequently a guy in SL. but she is also a builder and makes her own avi's so to her, it's just another creation. i doubt she thinks about it in terms of sexuality.
[4:24] Tristan Avedon: it's more her showing off another of her creations.
[4:24] Magenta Bleac: I know a couple of grils with guy avs
[4:24] Reflection Freenote: hahaha, that is interesting Magenta!! perhaps a new approach to weightloss and exercise enhancement awaits
[4:24] hajar Cyberstar: and then again, touchin upon gender, I'm almost tempted to ask if anyone comes across an avatar that acually wants to be transgendered [as it happens in RL]
[4:24] Marita Decosta: Raises hand
[4:24] Lucian Ravinelli: aye, she is one of those people that thinks of the world as just pixels and prims, rather than identifying with the avatar
[4:25] Tristan Avedon: hajar: i'm sure all of us have, even if we didnt know it.
[4:25] Skov Janick: I know one - going trough a sex change
[4:25] Tristan Avedon: i mean, that's part of the attraction to a virtual environment, the ability to be what you want to be in the real world.
[4:25] Lucian Ravinelli: Marita, go ahead and just blurt it out
[4:25] Magenta Bleac: exactly, Tristan
[4:26] Marita Decosta: [4:24] hajar Cyberstar: and then again, touchin upon gender, I'm almost tempted to ask if anyone comes across an avatar that acually wants to be transgendered [as it happens in RL]
[4:26] Marita Decosta: thsi is why I ham hee
[4:26] Marita Decosta: geeze
[4:26] Tristan Avedon: perhaps its a good place for someone who is transgendered to test the waters and learn to be comfortable being who they are.
[4:26] Marita Decosta: though this avatar was creasted to resemble my self
[4:26] Tristan Avedon: that's awesome, Marita
[4:26] Marita Decosta: it's still not
[4:26] Rober1236 Jua: Well perhaps the cyber context is being used to construct new genders
[4:26] Reflection Freenote: actually, I believe thereis a very active transgender community here for obvious reasons. It is realy a place where you can simulate and try out your ideas before going ahead with things
[4:27] Tristan Avedon: right. i agree.
[4:27] Rober1236 Jua: Genders not associate with our RL biology myths
[4:27] Rober1236 Jua: The entire Cyborg Manifesto thing
[4:27] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: gender is what everyone seems be concerned with..when talking about sl to non sl people..im so tired of it
[4:27] Areyn Laurasia: New genders? like we aren't confused with the realities of the virtual world...
[4:27] Sharry Ragu: oddly enough.. on the topic of gender.. I am going to say.. my avatar is very feminine.. I am female, but RL have been mostly a tom-boy.. so my appearance in SL is quite a mystery to me
[4:28] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: avatars have taught us to think beyond all this transgender and whos what stuff
[4:28] Areyn Laurasia smiles
[4:28] Tristan Avedon: good point, Pyewacket.
[4:28] Reflection Freenote: yes robert!!! absolutey, it may be that we will be ever more liberated from all manner of role definitions
[4:28] hajar Cyberstar: Oh - I get that. What I meant was tt perhaps as in rl we're so accustomed to being either a female or a male that when we enter SLwe felt tt we have to follow suit
[4:28] Rober1236 Jua: Donna Haraway wrote a great deal about construcing new genders
[4:28] Rober1236 Jua: the REALITY is most SL AV are barbies or Kens though
[4:29] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: hmm the reality?
[4:29] hajar Cyberstar: Oh yes - was it the ones on 5 genderes Rober
[4:29] Rober1236 Jua: I have spent 2 years exploring SL taking 10s of photos
[4:29] Lucian Ravinelli: You mean, Marita, your avatar does not reflect who you really feel yerself to be?
[4:29] Reflection Freenote: that's really interesting Sharry. I think mysteries are often frought with enormous meaning:)
[4:29] Sharry Ragu: yeah... who'd a thunk I'd be comfortable looking like a Barbie...
[4:29] Rober1236 Jua: for my PhD work on idnetity in cyber culture
[4:29] Rober1236 Jua: by reality I mean what you see most of the time
[4:30] Rober1236 Jua: ]look at the avs in this group, most are very clearly gendered in an obvious way
[4:30] Rober1236 Jua: Long legs and large breasts for women
[4:30] Rober1236 Jua: Men have muscles
[4:30] Marita Decosta: no Lucian it does refrlect who I feel I really am, and could have been long ago if I had understood or know what I know now
[4:30] Sharry Ragu: by SL standards.. I don't think there are too many big breasts here...
[4:31] Rober1236 Jua: Breasts in SL seem to resist the laws of gravity as well
[4:31] Magenta Bleac: I agree, Sharry
[4:31] Lucian Ravinelli: Lynque reminds me of a Marilyn Manson/David Bowie hybrid....
[4:31] Lucian Ravinelli: Ly
[4:31] Reflection Freenote: that's very interesting Robert, and Haraway, really was so prescient about these things
[4:31] Magenta Bleac: who wants saggy boobs in a virtual world?
[4:31] Lucian Ravinelli: or did...before he changed his appearance ;)
[4:31] Rober1236 Jua: Well I think we can all agree though that for most people in SL gender if critical, and they express it is clear forms
[4:31] Areyn Laurasia: maybe we do but they don't have it that way?
[4:31] Iynque Loire has changed out of his costume :)
[4:32] Reflection Freenote: hahaha, sharry, "by SL standards", I was once told that even the minimum you could give a ruth was still pretty large by FL standards:))
[4:32] Sharry Ragu: I still think its a choice.. I have seen tom-boy avatars.. yet I did not go in that direction
[4:32] Sharry Ragu: ;)
[4:33] Magenta Bleac: :)
[4:33] Rober1236 Jua: Well here is an avatar I create myself for performances I gave in a SIM
[4:33] Tristan Avedon: Perhaps it's just that, as human beings, the majority of us define our "gender" as being either more female or male, so avatars will still reflect a clear gender identity of sorts.
[4:33] Reflection Freenote: well magenta, it would take all kinds of scripts to make them move realistically, I think;-)
[4:33] Rober1236 Jua: its based on Oliver Teist
[4:33] Marita Decosta: I spent y first year in SL as part of a peer support group, it was the only reason I stayed, something worthwhile, not a game
[4:33] Rober1236 Jua: so its not hard to construct something very different than the SL standard
[4:33] Rober1236 Jua: but few do
[4:33] hajar Cyberstar: I agree with you, Tristan
[4:33] Rober1236 Jua: Fracture is a group that promotes transgender http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ars%20Lunga/95/205/171
[4:33] Sharry Ragu: I think overall.. and given avatar options.. it's interesting that so many still remain in 'human form'
[4:33] Rober1236 Jua: they are having a party this eventing
[4:34] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: huamn form is easier
[4:34] hajar Cyberstar: maybe we come in human forms for meetings such as these?
[4:34] Skov Janick: could it be that we are comfortable as humans
[4:34] Magenta Bleac: it's interesting, in this pixel perfect world, I find those who have very ungainly avatars usually have a massive chip on their shoulder
[4:34] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: i have many animals... but the human is easier..with sitting ext
[4:34] Tristan Avedon: i'm a furry sometimes. typically human for the most part.
[4:34] Marita Decosta: I got to meet and talk with a lot of people who use SL to help deal with menta', emotional, or physical challenges
[4:35] Rober1236 Jua: My research issue is why do people default to the kind of human forms we see here
[4:35] Rober1236 Jua: even furries become more and more default human over time
[4:35] Lucian Ravinelli: do they?
[4:35] Tristan Avedon: true. the majority of the furry avis i see are still anthropomorphic
[4:35] Reflection Freenote: yes, it is a little known fact that the vast majority of all humans struggle with issues of self-concept and self-esteem, and most of us do rather well to cobble omethig together whcih is not too far from the standard templates offered by our culture. Maybe this environment offers a whole new range of opportunities?
[4:35] Tristan Avedon: (god, i hope i spelled that right)
[4:36] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: im going from human to robot
[4:36] Iynque Loire: I have several human outfits set up, I customize them and have fun doing so. I also have several furries, an elf, a dragon, a robot, etc. etc., but they are harder to customize...
[4:36] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: both in body and mind
[4:36] Iynque Loire: It's all bout the creativity for me
[4:36] Sharry Ragu laughs at Tristan!!
[4:36] Tristan Avedon: wha?
[4:36] Tristan Avedon: moi?
[4:36] hajar Cyberstar: I feel you, Marita. I came here for school at first, tho, but have had support at VAI
[4:36] Tristan Avedon: *looks around*
[4:37] Reflection Freenote: pye that would be an interesting choice, what do you think it represents?
[4:37] Rober1236 Jua: Well I would also warn about making too many assumptions about what is going on in people's minds
[4:37] hajar Cyberstar: hmm, does anyone here tried The SIMs tho
[4:37] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: the future huamn intelligence will reside in avatars
[4:37] Rober1236 Jua: I hope not Pye
[4:37] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: a futre human
[4:37] hajar Cyberstar: Pye, that's a scary thought
[4:37] Reflection Freenote: lynque, obviously as with all abilities there are enormous diferences in gifts (this is about the best that I could do;-))
[4:37] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: its enevatable
[4:37] Aquiel Aero is Online
[4:37] hajar Cyberstar: ok, I take back my words
[4:37] Magenta Bleac: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1739601,00.html
[4:37] Rober1236 Jua: I think Pye has hit the key issue
[4:38] Lucian Ravinelli: Not as much as Carl Sagan's prediction that robots will overtake the human race
[4:38] Rober1236 Jua: will we or will be not, can we or can we not
[4:38] Rober1236 Jua: Th
[4:38] hajar Cyberstar: Kubrick's AI
[4:38] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: we train the psyche now as we speek
[4:38] Rober1236 Jua: Its on old myth of our culture
[4:38] Magenta Bleac: I love Carl
[4:38] Tristan Avedon: as it is, communication is all in the "virtual world"...texting, IM, skype, email....
[4:38] Rober1236 Jua: Machine kills man or man goies and lives in machine
[4:38] Tristan Avedon: the avatar was just a natural evolution
[4:38] hajar Cyberstar: thank you, Magenta
[4:38] Lucian Ravinelli: The Singularity is Immanent
[4:38] Iynque Loire: Anyone seen trailers for the movie Avatar? Where we would all be in capsules and control idealized robot versions of ourselves from afar? I think that is the logical conclusion of SL...
[4:39] Areyn Laurasia: or the human becomes the machine and the machine gains individuality
[4:39] Iynque Loire: Avatar or surrogates...
[4:39] Iynque Loire: something like that
[4:39] Rober1236 Jua: Excuse me does anyone mind if I blog this discussion?
[4:39] Skov Janick: body becomes a mahine - not the mind
[4:39] Reflection Freenote: yes, Carl was a patron saint for sanity in a demon clouded world
[4:39] Tristan Avedon: lets go back ten years....The Matrix.
[4:39] Areyn Laurasia: but we are enslaved by our minds.. isn't the virtual all a mindscape?
[4:40] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: we take baby steps in understanding and psycholgywhat it is to live in a digital world
[4:40] Rober1236 Jua: This is like solid pay dirt for my graduate research, reading everyone bring these points up
[4:40] Lucian Ravinelli: gawd has it really been ten years?
[4:40] Tristan Avedon: nah. you're only enslaved if you let yourself be.
[4:40] Reflection Freenote: no problem for me Robert1236
[4:40] Iynque Loire: The matrix was real people in a virtual world. Surrogates is about virtual people in the real world...
[4:40] Iynque Loire: I wonder which would win out
[4:40] Magenta Bleac: I know people who would happily leave their corporeal form behind and live in SL
[4:40] Areyn Laurasia: yeah.. I would be one
[4:40] Tristan Avedon: i see the virtual landscape as a place to explore.
[4:40] Rober1236 Jua: I know people who have
[4:40] Tristan Avedon: one adventure after another.
[4:40] Pyewacket Kazyanenko: we cannt comprhend whats to be..its not going to be like some hollywood movie
[4:40] Magenta Bleac: :)
[4:41] Sharry Ragu: I actually like to bring my SL experiences into my FL dimension..
[4:41] Iynque Loire: Sharry: me too....
[4:41] Iynque Loire: I walk differently :)
[4:41] Tristan Avedon: and you know, I'll be leaving for my RL job in an hour or so, i'm sure i'll wish i could leave my RL behind and live in SL once i read my email inbox.
[4:41] Pyewacket Kazyanenko is Online
[4:41] Rober1236 Jua: I would like SL to be more connected to RL
[4:41] Reflection Freenote: I think the matrix is really saying that civilization *is* the matrix. We are already cyborg, and have been for about 10,000 years. It is only now that we are awakening, I think;-)
[4:41] Skov Janick: and me Sharry
[4:41] Rober1236 Jua: Have your SL friends in your mobile phone
[4:42] Sharry Ragu: awesome reflection Ref ;)
[4:42] Rober1236 Jua: maybe they could move in to Google maps and be virtually where I am
[4:42] Lucian Ravinelli: we're very close to mind-controlled video game controllers...in another 10 years we might have storage devices capable of holding all the information in your brain...
[4:42] Tristan Avedon: i use SLim to instant message my SL friends when I cant run the viewer, like when i'm at work
Rober1236 Jua the Cyber Trekker of Second Life