Sunday, 6 July 2008

Dorkbot July 2008 Text (just a small part)

[14:03] Exosius Woolley is Online
[14:03] Keane Giha is Online
[14:03] Pandora Wrigglesworth is Online
[14:03] Sable Ashbourne is Online
[14:03] Meadow McBride is Online
[14:03] Myrtil Igaly is Online
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[14:03] Thelema Sands is Online
[14:03] PatriciaAnne Daviau is Online
[14:03] Osprey Therian is Online
[14:03] Enigma Bombay is Online
[14:03] Sashika Szondi is Online
[14:03] Linda Lunt is Online
[14:03] starlance Whitfield is Online
[14:03] WendyOfNeverland Fussbudget is Online
[14:03] Naftali Torok is Online
[14:03] Nickita Goodnight is Online
[14:03] Bela Lubezki is Online
[14:03] Movies1963 Beck is Online
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[14:03] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
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[14:03] A group member named Old Msarko gave you DreamScape Images & LLX Designs, Hanjin (152, 87, 44).
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[14:04] A group member named Cienega Soon gave you !!Darkness Masquerade Ball poster.
[14:05] Old Msarko: you injur that hand in a fractal painting session?
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[14:05] Old Msarko: hahah
[14:05] You decline NMC DIABOLUS-CARP,WALL NMC Campus West (127, 108, 21) from A group member named Josina Burgess.
[14:06] A group member named Josina Burgess gave you NMC DIABOLUS-CARP,WALL NMC Campus West (127, 108, 21).
[14:06] Old Msarko: that thing is pretty bad ass
[14:07] Old Msarko: k
[14:08] Miriam Milo is Online
[14:08] Teleport completed from
[14:08] Roger Fullstop: would be great to have the server side supported by LL indeed
[14:08] McGroarty Playfair: Ayumi: You can use the features without being on an enabled sim as well - it's just that only you see the results.
[14:08] Evo Szuyuan: as we have JJ and Philippe here :-)
[14:08] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[14:08] Connected
[14:08] Ventrella Linden: any other Qs?
[14:08] Ayumi Cassini: ah, that's enough for me :) I just want to test it
[14:08] Ayumi Cassini: thanks
[14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: just wondering at how it is streamed to the server (AWG territory there)
[14:08] Osprey Therian forms a guerrilla ragdoll underground army
[14:08] Evo Szuyuan: what would it take to implement script functions for the puppeteering?
[14:09] Sean Cinquetti: LOL Osprey !!!
[14:09] Roger Fullstop: Haven't thought about that at all
[14:09] McGroarty Playfair: Saijanai: There are just a couple extra messages. You should be able to isolate those easily.
[14:09] Ventrella Linden: That was one of our original ideas - and I was never able to implement that - but
[14:09] Ventrella Linden: it would be really empowering.
[14:09] Basil Wijaya: tks folks, nice work, goodbye
[14:09] IntLibber Brautigan: a single pose tends to consume three emails of data
[14:09] Roger Fullstop: I'm puzzled. Example of ehat you have in mind Ventrlla?
[14:10] Saijanai Kuhn: KK. You know we're going http for almost everything. Seems that http might be more reliable but not sure if its suitable for such a continuous stream of data
[14:10] Feynt Mistral: I honestly don't see what the issue would be if you treated the end effectors like attachments, allowing you to set their position.
[14:10] Ventrella Linden: So for instance,
[14:10] Evo Szuyuan: what development would you like to see Ventrella?
[14:10] Darien Caldwell: yes scripted would be very useful.
[14:10] Ventrella Linden: instead of the mouse cursor moving joitns in Physical Avatar,
[14:10] Ehdward Spengler: very cool, thanks for the demo :)
[14:10] Osprey Therian: oooooh
[14:10] Ventrella Linden: we design scripts that allow LSL to move them-
[14:10] Ventrella Linden: using various high-level commands.
[14:10] Saijanai Kuhn: the BAP/FAP rotocol is pretty compressed and looks to implement the entire system you've shown Wondering if that should be standardized on
[14:11] Feynt Mistral: llMoveJoint([LEFT_WRIST, <5, 0, 1> + llGetPos]);
[14:11] Hypatia Callisto salivates over lsl control
[14:11] Evo Szuyuan: and say you want to combine this with motion like walking ?
[14:11] Ventrella Linden: Physical Avatar code doesn't care what's moving its joitns.
[14:11] Roger Fullstop: easier than the current animation files... interesting...
[14:11] Ventrella Linden: Conbine with walking...
[14:11] Ventrella Linden: once of the more complex things about this is that...
[14:11] Ventrella Linden: it tried to make traditional ava animation get along with...
[14:11] Osprey Therian: Would be great to have a puppeteering-enabled set of machinima regions that was rentable or just available.
[14:12] Ventrella Linden: physically-based, forward dynamics.
[14:12] Ventrella Linden: Not easy.
[14:12] Saijanai Kuhn: facial animation in MPEG-4
[14:12] Ventrella Linden: But do-able.
[14:12] Man Michinaga: I'd like to consider puppeteering with a phycial armature
[14:13] Evo Szuyuan: roger.. what kind of usage do you see for your technology?
[14:13] Feynt Mistral: Well it's been exciting to watch in amazing slide-show-o-vision, but I've got to get going. Keep up the good work guys.
[14:13] Ventrella Linden: Thanks F
[14:13] Feynt Mistral: Night folks.
[14:13] Osprey Therian: Timing is always so hard - come up with an amazing thing that gets shelved as it's time is not there yet and it can wind up gone forever.
[14:13] Kawa Constantine: Night Feynt
[14:13] Osprey Therian: *its
[14:13] Man Michinaga: Like havinga physical armature like a doll andmoving it
[14:13] Roger Fullstop: Evo: first, we'd like to make meetings in SL more natural, with gesture and body language becoming part of it
[14:13] Political Magic: xx
[14:14] Ventrella Linden: here here
[14:14] You: well Cutlure produces gestures
[14:14] Saijanai Kuhn: body animation for MPEG-4
[14:14] Roger Fullstop: that would improve the attractivness and efficiency of meetings in world
[14:14] You: gestures that are automatic that we don't have to think about
[14:14] Ventrella Linden: I'm not looking at the audiesnce. For example.
[14:14] You: you would want to animate these gestures not have to run them
[14:14] Keane Giha is Offline
[14:14] Ventrella Linden: Not enough body language to make it worth the low framerate.
[14:14] Nickita Goodnight is Offline
[14:15] Roger Fullstop: exactly, right now, meeting is IM with a nice backgrounf
[14:15] You: and VOIP
[14:15] You: and file exchanges and email and other things
[14:15] Evo Szuyuan: true
[14:15] Roger Fullstop: we don't really take advantage of the 3D aspect of the world, i.e., relating to others in a 3D space
[14:15] Ventrella Linden: Roger...
[14:16] Ventrella Linden: does the puppeteering work correctly for you - in "local mode">
[14:16] Roger Fullstop: err... after some debugging, yes :)
[14:16] Ventrella Linden: I recall the server interpretation causing joints to be way off.
[14:17] Roger Fullstop: at the beginning, I crashed after one puppeteering session :)
[14:17] Ventrella Linden: I'm hoping that it is still looking right in local mode.
[14:17] Aymeric Yalin: Ventrella, some french SL people took advantage of the 3D aspect in a e-learning context
[14:17] Roger Fullstop: Ventralla: the issue of joint being way off happened also in local mode
[14:17] Evo Szuyuan: uhoh :-)
[14:17] Ventrella Linden: curious why.
[14:18] Aymeric Yalin: Their students are in room, which is colored from green to red : avatars whodo not understand the lecture move to the red part of the room, and the teacher can identify them easily
[14:18] Roger Fullstop: that had to do with the init (getting the caopy of the joint position) from LLVOAvatar not being done at the right time
[14:18] Roger Fullstop: under some conditions
[14:18] Ventrella Linden: yea - that sounds right.
[14:18] Ventrella Linden: LLVOAvatar - ah - memories.
[14:18] Roger Fullstop: Yeah, I had to track the whole flag state logic and rewrite it from scratch basically
[14:19] Roger Fullstop: now it works :)
[14:19] Ventrella Linden: you rule.
[14:19] Roger Fullstop: I also added rotational puppeteering
[14:19] Roger Fullstop: i.e.: you can't turn the gaze of the head right now
[14:19] Roger Fullstop: or rotate the hands
[14:19] Ventrella Linden: Good job.
[14:20] Roger Fullstop: so I added and extra modifer to do just that
[14:20] Ventrella Linden: Any other questions from the gallery?
[14:20] Evo Szuyuan: there was a queestion earlier about other avatars then humanoids
[14:20] Ventrella Linden: Ah...
[14:20] Ventrella Linden: A fave topic.
[14:20] paulie Femto: :)
[14:20] Ventrella Linden: uh, what's the question?
[14:21] Evo Szuyuan: could the humanoid limit be bypassed?
[14:21] paulie Femto: imagine puppeteering a 4 legged avatar. :)
[14:21] Ventrella Linden: With enough coding, of course :)
[14:21] Political Magic: Why is 3d video better than having sensors on your body?
[14:21] Humming Pera: or leave the coding more open
[14:21] Ventrella Linden: If this were my own virtual world...
[14:21] Ventrella Linden: we'd all be open-ended animals to begin with,.
[14:21] Evo Szuyuan: other joints need to be known
[14:22] Ventrella Linden: Wes - here's the thing...
[14:22] Humming Pera: open-ended would be much better
[14:22] Ventrella Linden: When you have a known skeleton, it's much simpler.
[14:22] Roger Fullstop: political: few people like to put on markers...
[14:22] Saijanai Kuhn: MPEG-4 defines a generic humanoid, and skips to generic bone structure. Nothing inbetween
[14:22] Ventrella Linden: when you want an open-ended skeleton, you need more procedural umph - like Spore.
[14:22] Enigma Bombay is Offline
[14:23] Saijanai Kuhn: seems to me that optimzed quadrapeds and so on could be devised
[14:23] Ventrella Linden: Absolutely.
[14:23] Humming Pera: even speaking in these terms like skelton implies biological life, which this isn't ...
[14:23] Saijanai Kuhn: most furries are humanoid or four-leggged as far as I know
[14:23] Ventrella Linden: I developed an animal skeleton while at LL, but...
[14:23] Malburns Writer: a fish avie?
[14:23] Ventrella Linden: Like so many innovations liek that,
[14:23] Ventrella Linden: they took a back seat to stability.
[14:23] Osprey Therian: :(
[14:23] Sashika Szondi is Offline
[14:23] paulie Femto: :(
[14:23] Evo Szuyuan: ahh.. so we can start nagging for that code too :-)
[14:23] Darien Caldwell: lol
[14:23] Political Magic: Is it true that using markers is much easier and more reliable than 3d video?
[14:24] Saijanai Kuhn: that was the result of the OPen Letter caling for freezing innovation til all the bugs were worked out
[14:24] Sashika Szondi is Online
[14:24] Miriam Milo is Offline
[14:24] Saijanai Kuhn: Political, it would have to be, but not many people want to wear little metalic dots on their face and clothing
[14:24] Ventrella Linden: I can't speak to those decisions - not my call.
[14:24] Roger Fullstop: political magic: it's more reliable and precise so that's what movie studio do, but it's not easier
[14:25] Roger Fullstop: especially if you're the one who need to put the markers on :)
[14:25] Malburns Writer: i always imagined multiple sensor (4-8) in rl environment and waering small badge to calibrate self
[14:25] Linda Lunt is Offline
[14:25] McGroarty Playfair: I've done mocap. For full body, you spend more time maintaining the markers and recalibrating than you spend shooting.
[14:25] Hypatia Callisto: I remember Runitai having worked on sculpties being able to adopt the skeleton of the avatar as well
[14:25] Roger Fullstop: personally, I can't imagine putting markers on my face going to work :)
[14:25] Political Magic: But is the technology available now to use markers?
[14:25] Hypatia Callisto: havent heard anything about that recently
[14:25] Ventrella Linden: MArkers on glasses - a little easier.
[14:26] Roger Fullstop: yeah but that's just a couple of points
[14:26] Osprey Therian: Need implants :-D
[14:26] Saijanai Kuhn: Johnny Lee showed using Wii input converted to goggles on youtube. Very cool. I invited him to this presentation but I dout he got the email
[14:26] Ventrella Linden: Yea - so real face MOCAP should be done optically.
[14:26] else Ra: You look so cool with those primOptic Artic glasses, Man!
[14:26] Ventrella Linden: with cameras.
[14:26] Man Michinaga: I figure after TED, he's getting deluged
[14:26] Roger Fullstop: I loved Johnny Lee Wii videos!
[14:27] Meadow McBride is Offline
[14:27] Osprey Therian: yes
[14:27] Saijanai Kuhn:
[14:27] Evo Szuyuan: maybe he'd like to present here some time :-)
[14:27] Roger Fullstop: The first demo I did was a copy of his "point of view tracking" demo but without the Wii
[14:27] McGroarty Playfair: Oooh nice
[14:27] Political Magic: How adaptable is the Wii technology to SL?
[14:28] Political Magic: And is this something to focus on?
[14:28] Roger Fullstop: I heard of some folks trying to adapt the wiimote
[14:28] Saijanai Kuhn: we need a generic plugin architecture for avatar control
[14:28] Bingo Onomatopoeia: I did that...
[14:28] Roger Fullstop: after all, there's a joystick driver for it
[14:28] Bingo Onomatopoeia: ...moving with the nunchuk is nice
[14:29] Saijanai Kuhn: needs to allow for mouse-like AND full pupeteering control
[14:29] Ventrella Linden: multiple inputs.
[14:29] Saijanai Kuhn: Ventralla, are those packets separate or part of some existing message packet?
[14:29] Man Michinaga: what woudl be really cool is to map sensor input to nodes for puppeteeringof av IK nodes or object control
[14:30] Roger Fullstop: the thing with puppeteering is that you need to track much more than a couple of points for realistic movements
[14:30] Black T Giver owned by Evo Szuyuan gave you 'Dorkbot blk2' ( ).
[14:30] Political Magic: What is the difference between puppeteering and just animated bots in SL?
[14:30] Ventrella Linden: what packets?
[14:30] Saijanai Kuhn: I put in the suggestion to map fundamental animation primitives to hotkeys or chorded keys or even mdid inpu
[14:30] Ventrella Linden: (packet question forst..)
[14:30] Saijanai Kuhn: MIDI*
[14:30] Man Michinaga: yes.
[14:30] Man Michinaga: MIDI INPUT|!
[14:31] j3rry Paine: yayyyy sai
[14:31] Man Michinaga: That's what SL MEEDS|!|
[14:31] paulie Femto: imagine playin a keyboard or instrumen to make yer av dance. :)
[14:31] Ventrella Linden: sorry - there was another question...?
[14:31] Saijanai Kuhn: of course we need standardized MIDI instruments but that doesn't exist for LInux afaik
[14:31] Tara Yeats: MIDI input would be very cool for puppeteering
[14:31] Oz Larg: Animusic :D
[14:31] Malburns Writer: animation=effects puppeteering=function ???
[14:31] Osprey Therian: singing or humming hah
[14:32] Humming Pera: :-))
[14:32] Saijanai Kuhn: Ventralla, the packets that are sent for the pupetteering ont eh server side
[14:32] Evo Szuyuan: animation is pre recorded
[14:32] Ventrella Linden: sorry - what about the packets?
[14:32] You decline SunnTee Arts @ Orange Bisbee from A group member named Sunn Thunders.
[14:32] You decline DreamScape Images & LLX Designs, Hanjin (152, 87, 44) from A group member named Old Msarko.
[14:32] Saijanai Kuhn: hmmm. So there's no realtime change in avie move,emt
[14:32] You decline MMAG Mona Mendes Art Gallery from A group member named Mona Mendes.
[14:32] You decline Embassy Formal Ballroom -- NoLag, Land of Hope (18, 234, 41) from A group member named zephyru Zapedzki.
[14:32] Saijanai Kuhn: confused
[14:32] You decline SS Galaxy - Queen of the Sagitta, Galaxy MID (112, 224, 25) from A group member named Gracie Kendal.
[14:32] You decline Robie bloch concert, Hyacinth Island (36, 41, 24) from A group member named Eddi Haskell.
[14:33] You decline 80's from A group member named christian Hennah.
[14:33] You decline ! Expo - Whispering Pines (95, 167, 30) from A group member named Popov Huldschinsky.
[14:33] Evo Szuyuan: huh
[14:33] You decline 80's from A group member named Eleicktra Ling.
[14:33] Evo Szuyuan: it is realtime
[14:33] You decline Invitation to exhibtion from A group member named Edvard Gylling.
[14:33] You decline ** Photo & Art Warehouse ** from A group member named Meb Collins.
[14:33] Evo Szuyuan: pre-recorded thing was in answer on animation versus puppeteering
[14:33] Evo Szuyuan: but can you repeat your question about packets?
[14:33] Ventrella Linden: Yes - what Evo sez.
[14:33] Saijanai Kuhn: ok, let's say yo do a control of hte avai's joints. Is that cached and sent as a big chunk of BVH, or as a stram of separate modifications, or what
[14:34] Ventrella Linden: Ah...
[14:34] Political Magic: OK, it's real time, but that is waht an avatar is puppeteering different?
[14:34] Ventrella Linden: Well, before Roger has his take on this one...
[14:34] Saijanai Kuhn: OK, thought canned animations were cached on client side. DIdn't realize they were streamed already.
[14:34] Ventrella Linden: The goal is to not have to send too much stuff over whever you changce a joint/
[14:34] Evo Szuyuan: sst political.. first saijanai q :-)
[14:34] Ventrella Linden: So, it's NOT a BVH.
[14:34] Ventrella Linden: It was originally just the one joint...
[14:34] Ventrella Linden: and each viewer knew how to run the physics (well, kind of).
[14:35] Ventrella Linden: Then it was changed to all the joints sent over...
[14:35] Ventrella Linden: But the details were known by Cube Linden well, and now,
[14:35] Ventrella Linden: I think Roger knows that parts best. Roger?
[14:35] Meadow McBride is Online
[14:35] Roger Fullstop: Actually, I haven't played with the roundtripping through server yet
[14:36] Roger Fullstop: I've seen and read the code though
[14:36] Roger Fullstop: and, indeed, it's still the way you just described
[14:36] Evo Szuyuan: ah
[14:36] Saijanai Kuhn: OK, I'm the protocol documentation guy for the AWG so I get into this stuff. Sorry if i'm boring anyone
[14:36] Roger Fullstop: i.
[14:36] Roger Fullstop: I'll be diving into the protocol part later this month
[14:37] Roger Fullstop: for the moment, I'm finishing the local tracking part
[14:37] Saijanai Kuhn: Should give me a holler if you need an assistant
[14:37] Ventrella Linden: Can I say something about the puppeteering vs normal av animation?
[14:37] Roger Fullstop: Saijanai: cool! ping me on sldev
[14:37] Evo Szuyuan: but the server side code is not publicly available right?
[14:37] Saijanai Kuhn: the eventual goal is to documnt all current protocols as a baseline for redesigning them for the open grid
[14:37] Artm Udal: local tracjking is with head mounted camera?
[14:37] Evo Szuyuan: sure ventrella
[14:37] Ventrella Linden: As Evo was saying...
[14:37] Ventrella Linden: Normal animation ios pre-recorded.
[14:38] Ventrella Linden: Think of it as a movie being playes.
[14:38] Ventrella Linden: Then you stop the movie and
[14:38] Ventrella Linden: grab control of the skeleton - that's puppeteering.
[14:38] Ventrella Linden: When you're done, it falls back into normal mode.
[14:38] Ventrella Linden: That's an oversimplification, '
[14:38] Ventrella Linden: but gets the basic idea, I think.
[14:39] Political Magic: I have to leave but I am going to outline my questions concisely and IM them to whoever would like to help me understand a little more aboput animation and puppeteering. Who should I IM later with questions?
[14:39] Evo Szuyuan: please read the documentation at also
[14:39] Saijanai Kuhn: was looking more intothe Body Animation Parameters (BAP) protocol. They have a pretty extensible system. NOt sure if its what is required for SL or not
[14:40] Artm Udal has to leave too. thanks for the great presentations Roger and Ventrella, cheerZ Evo.
[14:40] Evo Szuyuan: maybe iif we do this workshop we show you by demonstration :-)
[14:40] Celadon Shepherd is Online
[14:40] Evo Szuyuan: ksZ artm!
[14:40] Osprey Therian can't wait.
[14:40] Ayumi Cassini: me too
[14:40] Saijanai Kuhn: shameless plug. If any technogeeks want to help design the SL 2.0 protocols, IM me fpr AW Groupies membership
[14:40] Political Magic: Actually I think you answered my basic question, thanks.
[14:40] Saijanai Kuhn:
[14:41] Saijanai Kuhn: don't tell ZEro I said SL "2.0" though
[14:41] Roger Fullstop thinks he should join that group
[14:41] Evo Szuyuan: the thing i wonder is how to proceed with puppeteering if we can't look at server side of things..
[14:41] Evo Szuyuan: as long as it all works no problem ofcourse..
[14:41] Saijanai Kuhn: EVo as long as you now what the protocols are supposed to do, it shouldn't matter TOO much
[14:41] Ventrella Linden: One idea is this...
[14:41] Ventrella Linden: if it's just viewer-side,
[14:41] McGroarty Playfair: Evo: You could pass stuff encoded in chat as an interim fix.
[14:41] You: Yah work for Microsoft for a while you get good at it
[14:42] Evo Szuyuan: hehehehe
[14:42] You: Im serious
[14:42] Ventrella Linden: it can be used to save poses. - to make animations. That's what Aura was (is?) working on.
[14:42] Evo Szuyuan: aha!
[14:42] Hypatia Callisto: that's fantastic, and pretty much like what we could do way back when in a little place I was once in (rose)
[14:42] Roger Fullstop: That code is still in there though I haven't tried it yet
[14:42] Herbert Feldmann is Online
[14:43] Evo Szuyuan: that's the internal poser right?
[14:43] Roger Fullstop: yeap
[14:43] Evo Szuyuan: thanks saij
[14:43] Linda Lunt is Online
[14:43] Evo Szuyuan: need to remove a group first..
[14:44] Saijanai Kuhn: anyone else want a group invite?
[14:44] Osprey Therian: yes plz
[14:44] Ventrella Linden: Well,
[14:44] You: Wondering, how we use our body is a function of the social context we are in, does in not make sense to just create a vocublary of understood gestures for the context of Sl rather than "puppeting" from RL?
[14:44] Ventrella Linden: RL is calling me.
[14:44] Political Magic: Yes...
[14:44] Evo Szuyuan: so i think i will blog this chat transcript..
[14:44] Evo Szuyuan: please comment
[14:44] Oz Larg: Yes Plz
[14:45] McGroarty Playfair: Thanks again, Ventrella, Roger, Evo
[14:45] Osprey Therian: Thank you very much, Ventrella.
[14:45] Evo Szuyuan: and then i'll see how we can araange a workshop!
[14:45] McGroarty Playfair: Best luck on current endeavors!
[14:45] Roger Fullstop: thanks ventrella
[14:45] Ayumi Cassini: Thank you for very interesting presentations
[14:45] Ventrella Linden: sounds cool.
[14:45] Osprey Therian: Thank you, Roger, and thank you Evo - this has been great.
[14:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Tree Kyomoon has a nice wikifier for chat logs. Adds SL avatar pages and so on
[14:45] Malburns Writer: Yes - thanks all - highly interesting
[14:45] Evo Szuyuan: Yes JJ and Philippe !
[14:45] spinster Voom: oh good evo, think i need to reread it at least a couple of times lol
[14:45] You: thank you
[14:45] Hypatia Callisto: thank you very much, this was a great presentation
[14:45] Evo Szuyuan: many many thanks for sharing this with us and being here
[14:45] Ventrella Linden: Rojer - great work -
[14:45] Roger Fullstop: that was a pleasure to meet with you
[14:45] Ventrella Linden: glad you're giving the code some TLC.
[14:45] Tara Yeats: excellent session!
[14:46] Evo Szuyuan: i apologise for the chaos in the begnning
[14:46] Evo Szuyuan: aftr banning 3 people it was ok :-(
[14:46] Osprey Therian: heh
[14:46] Tara Yeats: Evo - that's what "mute" is for
[14:46] Roger Fullstop really needs to stretch his legs...
[14:46] spinster Voom thinks evo deserves a medal
[14:46] Herbert Feldmann is Offline
[14:46] Ventrella Linden: ok - later all...
[14:46] Evo Szuyuan: was hard to get screenspace..
[14:46] Hypatia Callisto: take care
[14:46] Evo Szuyuan: byebye!!
[14:46] spinster Voom: thank you so much all of you
[14:46] Rober1236 Jua scratches his head and yawns with a smile
[14:46] Evo Szuyuan: i'd also like to thank odyssey who is hosting us!
[14:47] Roger Fullstop: bye guys
[14:47] Rober1236 Jua looks at his nails and scratches his nose
[14:47] Evo Szuyuan: and everybody for joining!
[14:47] Roger Fullstop: I'm going to stay around for another 10 minutes then sign off
[14:47] Rober1236 Jua and does it without a pupper
[14:47] Oz Larg: Thank yall :D
[14:47] Osprey Therian: for upcoming event info where should we go Evop?
[14:47] Evo Szuyuan: i'd love to try the camera!
[14:47] Evo Szuyuan: please join dorkbot group
[14:47] Maxxo Klaar: thank you all - byeo
[14:48] LadyGray Hykova is Offline
[14:48] Osprey Therian: is it open to join?
[14:48] Evo Szuyuan: yes..
[14:48] Evo Szuyuan: dorkbot SL

ectronic art meetings
[14:48] Roger Fullstop: Eco, yes, send me an invite to the dorkbot group
[14:48] Fau Ferdinand: ;)
[14:48] Roger Fullstop: darn, I meant "Evo"
[14:48] Evo Szuyuan: :-)
[14:49] Fau Ferdinand: hello osprey :)
[14:49] Osprey Therian: Hello Fau
[14:49] Osprey Therian: can't join
[14:49] Osprey Therian: for some reason
[14:49] Malburns Writer: barely recognosed u Fau !!
[14:49] spinster Voom: k, i got to go too. Take care all and see you soon
[14:49] Evo Szuyuan: i send you an invitation
[14:49] Osprey Therian: oh ty
[14:50] Osprey Therian: for inv
[14:50] Roger Fullstop: Thanks Evo, accepted it
[14:50] Evo Szuyuan: bye spin!
[14:50] Osprey Therian: bye all!
[14:50] Fau Ferdinand: hehe mal
[14:50] Osprey Therian: you look diff Fau ;D
[14:50] Osprey Therian: bye!
[14:50] Evo Szuyuan: Fau..
[14:50] Herbert Feldmann is Online
[14:50] Evo Szuyuan: what would you do if you had the 3d cam ?
[14:50] Sarina Carnell is Online
[14:51] Fau Ferdinand: ah
[14:51] You decline Inspiration Cove (175, 68, 21 from A group member named Kat Claxton.
[14:51] Fau Ferdinand: I'd pretend I'm looking for my head on the floor
[14:51] Bingo Onomatopoeia: I woould build a 3d sound-editor or synth
[14:51] Evo Szuyuan: :D
[14:52] Roger Fullstop: there's more to 3D cams than just puppeteering
[14:52] Fau Ferdinand: oh mal
[14:52] Tara Yeats: oh! Hi Fau :-)
[14:52] Sarina Carnell is Offline
[14:52] Evo Szuyuan: yes ofcourse!
[14:52] Fau Ferdinand: talking about barely recognizable ?
[14:52] Fau Ferdinand: hehe hi tara
[14:52] Malburns Writer: made me get prim hair
[14:52] Ayumi Cassini: OK, I gotta go... bye bye everyone
[14:52] Fau Ferdinand: who ?
[14:52] Herbert Feldmann is Offline
[14:52] Evo Szuyuan: i would love to see face animation
[14:53] Malburns Writer: everyone!
[14:53] Roger Fullstop: face animation needs to be done with mesh blending
[14:53] Roger Fullstop: in SL
[14:53] You: well with the current UI you can't see it
[14:53] Roger Fullstop: I'd love to have someone working on this with me
[14:53] You: you need the screen to spot it and focus in on it
[14:54] You: we humans are programmed to notice faces in a natural seeting
[14:54] Evo Szuyuan: are you doing everythin by yourself now?
[14:54] Madcow Cosmos is Online
[14:54] Roger Fullstop: yeap, just me and Mitch... but he doesn't code much... :D
[14:55] Evo Szuyuan: haha.. no wonder you're lead programmer :-)
[14:55] Evo Szuyuan: just kidding
[14:55] Saijanai Kuhn: Talk to Ina Centaur. She dricts the SL Shakseparean company and I kow they've been doing work with lipsynched mechanima. MIght be some programmers who could contribute
[14:55] Roger Fullstop: a leader of a team of *1* :D
[14:55] PatriciaAnne Daviau is Offline
[14:55] Evo Szuyuan: I was hoping Mm Alder would be here
[14:55] Evo Szuyuan: he implemented lipsync for SL
[14:55] Saijanai Kuhn: this is exactly what they've ben hoping for, body and facial animation
[14:56] Fau Ferdinand is Online
[14:56] Evo Szuyuan: Ina is just using crazy talk
[14:56] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, LK
[14:56] Saijanai Kuhn: OK
[14:56] Roger Fullstop: I heard about that lipsync patch but haven't had time to play with it
[14:56] Evo Szuyuan: Mm also nominated for hippo on nest feature ;-)
[14:56] Saijanai Kuhn: but I know they've talked aobut pupetteering hoping it would be available
[14:56] Evo Szuyuan: there has been a lot of talk on bringin more expression to avatars on the machinima group
[14:57] Oz Larg: Back in the way old days we had lip syncronization in the Traveler platform
[14:57] Saijanai Kuhn got a hippo nomination for typing too much
[14:57] Roger Fullstop: Those guys should love puppeteering + 3D cam :)
[14:57] Evo Szuyuan: i found a link of discussion notes of 2006 on puppeteering
[14:57] Evo Szuyuan: and they thought it would make SL nr 1 for machinima
[14:57] Saijanai Kuhn: well, I'm sure it would
[14:57] Malburns Writer: i'm using lipsynch and love it - but needs wider range of gestures still
[14:58] Roger Fullstop: tantalizing...
[14:58] Evo Szuyuan: but would be bad for animation industry in SL
[14:58] Oz Larg: Malburns: is that trans?
[14:58] Roger Fullstop: Y?
[14:58] Saijanai Kuhn: I heard that it only trigers on volume right now, not phonemes
[14:58] Evo Szuyuan: i think a lot of the concern was making the UI more comlicated
[14:58] Malburns Writer: trans?
[14:58] Evo Szuyuan: true
[14:58] Oz Larg: phonemes were used in the Traveler platform
[14:58] Roger Fullstop: well, the cam should make the UI much more simple...
[14:58] Oz Larg: built into the vocodec
[14:58] Evo Szuyuan: but vivox is primising to give the streams
[14:59] Saijanai Kuhn: when sound comes over the microphone, teh louder the sound, the bigger the mouth. Phonemes would use AI to shape the mouth differently for different sounds
[14:59] Evo Szuyuan: absolutely!
[14:59] Roger Fullstop: that's the goal at least
[14:59] Evo Szuyuan: right now you can only get information on the volume
[14:59] You: Animations are like words in the body language, animations will always be needed like charcters
[14:59] Evo Szuyuan: and to do phoneme detection you need an audio stream per avatar
[14:59] Saijanai Kuhn wonders about non-english phonemes though
[15:00] You: you might pupper it but you will want to send certain animations rather than having to act out long complex gestures
[15:00] Evo Szuyuan: Vivox will come with new function for developers that will enable this
[15:00] Evo Szuyuan: or so they have said
[15:00] Rober1236 Jua scratches the back of his head and rubs his chin and she closes his eyes
[15:00] Evo Szuyuan: maybe robert..
[15:01] Evo Szuyuan: but for example..
[15:01] You: Gesture only matters for meaning
[15:01] Saijanai Kuhn: trying to see if LInux users have MIDI playback in SL via QT movies. If they do, then you have a universal MIDI instruments format available. COuld use it to send long streams of animation synched with music
[15:01] Evo Szuyuan: we';re working on a movie right now..
[15:01] Evo Szuyuan: and there are no subtle anims in SL
[15:01] Evo Szuyuan: there is riding a horse
[15:01] You: well SL anims are primitive that is true
[15:01] Evo Szuyuan: but not 'goin up the horse;
[15:01] Oz Larg: A lot of this phonemes stuff was done in the old day, I can hook you up to the people who designed it
[15:02] Evo Szuyuan: also synchronization between avi's is difficult
[15:02] You: the thing about gestures is they communicate
[15:02] Saijanai Kuhn is thinking an official VAG for pupeteering would be a good thing. GIve in an official page, tie-in with AWG/AW Groupies, etc
[15:02] You: so you can keyboard or type them
[15:02] You: you don't scratch your head to scratch your head but to show you are wondering
[15:02] You: gestures that have no intention are like picking your nose
[15:02] Evo Szuyuan: if you have joint information you can have more fluid interaction between avatars
[15:02] Naftali Torok is Offline
[15:02] You: that is true
[15:02] Saijanai Kuhn:
[15:02] You: but the communication is selecting gestures
[15:03] You: that have meaning you wish to communicate
[15:03] You: a keyboard is very interesting
[15:03] You: or maybe some kind of plastic substance like a clay
[15:03] Roger Fullstop: Robert: I'm using gesture to communicate in RL but not in SL 'cause babysitting the avatar for it is too much work
[15:03] You: Well the goal of realism is that gesture is RL will be intentional
[15:04] You: so though puppeting might accomplish it the goal is communication not motion for motion;s sake
[15:04] You: in fact I would like to move in ways I could not puppet
[15:04] Roger Fullstop: ? gestures in RL are intentional
[15:04] You: well some like picking our nose or rear are not
[15:05] You: but for the most part how we use our bodies in public is learned and has social intention
[15:05] You: gestures like scrathing or petting things are often considered rude
[15:05] Roger Fullstop: what about projecting that social intention with no or little UI?
[15:05] You: well that is not very much fun
[15:06] You: I can just text that
[15:06] Evo Szuyuan picks her nose
[15:06] Rober1236 Jua looks bored with a world without gesture
[15:06] Rober1236 Jua snickers at someone picking thier nose
[15:06] You: but you just made a metagesture
[15:06] Roger Fullstop: right now, I'm not looking at anyone in SL, just the stream of text in the IM window
[15:06] You: you made a gesture to reference a gesture which means its a message
[15:06] Roger Fullstop: all the comm is there
[15:07] You: Yes but it is dull
[15:07] Roger Fullstop: what's the plus of being in SL is everything is entered and rendered as text?
[15:07] You: it lacks the shades and colours that a full body can bring to communication
[15:07] Evo Szuyuan: i think you can have both
[15:07] You: We are all in agreement on this, I just want to make clear that most linguists view gesture as communication
[15:07] Roger Fullstop: I think we need both
[15:07] Evo Szuyuan: i wouldn't want everything to be just like RL here
[15:08] You: communication and not fiedelity of body movement must be the objective
[15:08] Roger Fullstop: gesture is comm
[15:08] Evo Szuyuan: but i certainly want more freedom of expression
[15:08] You: Same here, I want to do back fligs when I am happy
[15:08] Roger Fullstop: that's why you want it in SL, with little or no extra "texting" to transfer it
[15:08] You: I want to jump over the moon with joy
[15:09] You: but what coding, what words, and how is it expressed?
[15:09] Evo Szuyuan: but when someone is talking i also want to know they are talking..
[15:09] You: Yes and how they use their arms and feet
[15:09] Evo Szuyuan: and right now that's very difficult
[15:09] You: and I want to also fill my hair with wind when I am being important
[15:09] Roger Fullstop: indeed, all that communicate
[15:09] You: right now we don't know how to do it
[15:09] You: or maybe Google does
[15:09] Malburns Writer: maybe voice recognition software could someday help animation avatar
[15:09] You: but AI has not come far in Semantics
[15:10] You: well I would point to the Sociologist Maus and say we learn to use our body to communicate
[15:10] Evo Szuyuan: i think a lot of communication is in subtle body language
[15:10] You: in IT we give people tools and they lean to use it
[15:10] Saijanai Kuhn: human readable languages are difficult to program in
[15:10] You: well I think probably the richer tool concept it better
[15:10] Evo Szuyuan: not just in language
[15:10] You: let people have ore control over av
[15:11] Saijanai Kuhn: the rulesowrk just fine for reading, but when trying to write NEW stuff in a human-like language, it gets kinda silly (like AppleScript)
[15:11] Roger Fullstop: sure, that's the idea
[15:11] Roger Fullstop: the cam is not all or nothing
[15:11] Evo Szuyuan: exaclty
[15:11] Roger Fullstop: it's an extra input device
[15:11] Evo Szuyuan: it doesn not exclude anything else
[15:11] Roger Fullstop: what should we be limited to keyboard and mice?
[15:12] Evo Szuyuan: to get RSI ?
[15:12] You: well for accessability we should make almost everything utlimately keyboard and mice
[15:12] You: actually keyboard
[15:12] You: but we can add other devices that make it richer
[15:12] Evo Szuyuan: like 3d cam ?
[15:12] Evo Szuyuan: :D
[15:12] Roger Fullstop: some people can't use keyboards...
[15:13] You: 4-D cam, with ability to go back sounds great
[15:13] Evo Szuyuan:
[15:13] Evo Szuyuan: these were the 2006 notes on puppeteering..
[15:13] Evo Szuyuan: for those interested
[15:13] You: excellent
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